TRAVELLER Digest 558

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) by mpgn.com!traveller@gsusgi1.Gsu.EDU

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:10:38 GMT
From: mpgn.com!traveller@gsusgi1.Gsu.EDU
Message-ID: <199601201510.PAA25432@gsusgi1.Gsu.EDU>

***** UNDELIVERABLE MAIL sent to idmrmb, being returned by gsusgi1!idmrmb *****
mail: Error # 8 'Invalid recipient' encountered on system gsusgi1

Received: from Ambassador.MPGN.COM (Ambassador.MPGN.COM [149.109.1.5]) by 
gsusgi1.Gsu.EDU (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA25425 for
  <idmrmb@gsusgi1.gsu.edu>; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 10:10:31 -0500
Received: from  (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ambassador.MPGN.COM (8.6.9/8.6.9) 
with SMTP id KAA11448; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 10:01:40 -0500
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 10:01:40 -0500
Message-Id: <v01530502ad26570cff94@[203.15.30.9]>
Errors-To: traveller-request@mpgn.com
Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com
Originator: traveller@mpgn.com
Sender: traveller@mpgn.com
Precedence: bulk
From: traveller@mpgn.com
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: TRAVELLER digest 557
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

    TRAVELLER Digest 557

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 553
by anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  2) Re: 3D space
by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  3) "Real Traveller" and GDW's past history
by anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  4) Imperial Varient: The Imperial Federation
by Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
  5) A) K'Kree?  B) Other junk
by Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
  6) digest header suggestion
by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
  7) Re: TRAVELLER digest 556
by aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
  8) Regency/RC hostility...
by Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
  9) Collectable Trading Card Games in Traveller?
by htp@dove.mtx.net.au (Henry Penninkilampi)
 10) Progressive vs regressive
by Simon.Harding@vuw.ac.nz
 11) Re: TNE Mechanics
by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
 12) repeated postings of this list
by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
 13) Technology and War
by htp@dove.mtx.net.au (Henry Penninkilampi)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:28:33 -0900
From: anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 553
Message-ID: <v01530500ad25ac5ce9c8@[137.229.100.67]>

>
>Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 03:08:28 -0500 (EST)
>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Jerry Vs. Wil: The "Real Traveller" Debacle.
>Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960118024431.12887B-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
>
>Hi All. In the last mailing, Jerry let Wil have it for bashing TNE in
>favor of "real Traveller".  While I think that Wil's wording was a bit
>extreme, I have to agree with him that CT and MT are the "real" Traveller
>systems.  Call me a stodgy traditionalist, but TNE always struck me as a
>desperate attempt by GDW to get on the bandwagon of flashy RPG's with a
>dark-chic background.
[snip]
>Having said this, I have to agree with Jerry that the important thing is
>to keep Traveller alive, in whatever form.  People should be prepared to
>accept the fact that no one is going to get exactly what they want. Also,
>Marc Miller seems to have his mind set on going back to a CT/MT variant of
>some sort, so we are to some degree arguing a moot point here, no?  I
>realize that YARS tries one's patience, but I for one am prepared to give
>the game one more chance (if this doesn't work out, I'm definately going
>over to GURPS!  :-).

Charles, I also do think that TNE, were it, like 2300AD, divorced from
traveller proper, is a workable game system. It doesn't however, work well
for traveller, as traveller was always a firmly  "Normal-centric"
environment, and TNE  is extremely cinematic in its rules and treatments of
combat. Much like Phil's _Space Opera_. Not bad, just not in keeping with
traveller's previous incarnations. Also, it IS  a totally different game
system, where Traveller:2300/2300AD was much more closely related, albiet
still a unique game system.

>
>Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 03:20:03 -0500 (EST)
>3D space combat is a much more complicated matter, but I've come up with
>a system which is not TOO cumbersome (I don't think there's any way to
>make it really simple).

and is irrelevant until you get 4 or more bodies (ships, planets, etc)
involved, as it takes 3 points to define a plane, and 4 to define a volume
(tetrahedron, like 4 sided dice).  From 6 or more, you start to really feel
the need for a 3rd dimension, but then it will add much detail and math. A
good example is SpaceMaster:StarStrike; playable in 2D, but workable in 3D.
For roleplaying purposes, 2D is usually enough. (And just for reference,
many games have had 1D space combat systems, including traveller's HG, Star
Wars RPG, Starships & Spacemen, and several others.)

>------------------------------
>
>Apologies if anyone connected with the original books is listening in... but
>then as is pointed out in TML551 by anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F.
>Hostman), the TNE rules weren't bug-free either.
>
>This time, GET IT RIGHT FIRST TIME.
>
>Needless to say I have already humbly offered my writing and proof-reading
>services to Marc... :-)
>
>Andy Lilly
>Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)

Agreed Whole Heartedly.
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:38:08 +0200 (EET)
>From: Joni M Virolainen <jonimv@evitech.fi>
>Imagine the scene, if you will.  After buying the boxed set of
>MegaTraveller the new player (possibly GM) sits down after reading
>the rules to create a *new* character.  It's one of his favourite
>past-times.  Off we go... roll, roll, clatter, clatter.  Hmmm - the
>scouting career looks fun let's go for that.  More rolling and
>clattering in abundance.  Yes!  He's been commission... oohh I can
>feel his personality and history coming together now.  What a lucky
>dice roll - he's been promoted.  Wow, what a history.  He's dead.
>HE'S DEAD?  Is it just me or is slightly off to kill characters in
>generation?
>
Obviously, you didn't read the MT Player's Handbook carefully; It makes the
failed survival=out in 2yr/short term the standard. Actually gakking the
char is the OPTION in MT.


-Wil

William F. Hostman

EMail:          ANWFH@Orion.Alaska.EDU
HomePage:       http://orion.alaska.edu/~aswfh/index.html



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:49:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: 3D space
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960119153923.26667B-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All. In the last email, Harold said that 3D space would be hard to use.
I'm not sure I understand what your objection is Harold.  You said that 10
x 10 x 5 subsectors were not large enough.  Are the traditional 8 x 10
subsectors large enough?  If what you mean is that the depth of 5 parsecs
isn't enough to cover the depth of the galaxy, I completely agree.  You
simply would have several maps representing different layers of space.

Also, if one is using hex maps, there is no need to develop carpal tunnel
syndrome calculating distances.  You simply count the number of hexes
between departure and destination in the X/Y plane (i.e., like one does
with 2D Traveller), and then subtract the Z coordinate of the
destination from that of the departure world.  You then take these two
distances and consult a small table (7 x 7 cells) to find out the
pythagorean distance rounded up (if you don't want to use a calculator).

Charles.

<0>         "The mind is stranger than it can imagine."<0>
<0> Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), <0>
<0> Psychology Department, McGill University.  <0>
<0> 1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  <0>





------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:40:59 -0900
From: anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: "Real Traveller" and GDW's past history
Message-ID: <v01530505ad25baee5623@[137.229.100.70]>

Some claim that GDW labelling something traveller made it so. To them I
point out that this has NOT been true.

In the mid-80's, GDW Released Traveller 2300, a game supposedly set 3300
years before the CT/MT games primary timelines. As such, it was extremely
criticized. It was also "divorced" from traveller quickly, as it's
mechanics of spaceflight were quite different, and then married to T:2K
(which was still in its non-house system days) and renamed 2300AD. T:2K is
not a bad system. Nor, for overall system factors, is TNE. It is not,
however, an outgrowth of the system for CT/MT, where 2300AD was (albiet a
huge jump).

So I have several products that say "Traveller" on the cover, copyright GDW
on the copyright page, and have nothing to do with traveller!

as for ways to utilize CT/MT CGen for those who prefer T:NE, here is a
simple solution: use the tables for survival et al, with the result of
failed survival being a major hospitalization (9-24 months). Let the player
pick his skills from those available to that career, rather than rolling
them.

There are certain parts of TNE that I find more likely than their CT/MT
counterparts:
1) PC Ship aquisition: TNE's is more controllable and better for groups
than CT/MT's

2) FF&S. I like the breadth of tech available for design. If one isn't
included in 4th ed, I'll use 3g3 for much, and MT for the rest.

3) Contacts. I like characters having contacts from prior service. And TNE
allows them to call on one when THEY need one (or feel so).

I preferr MT CGen (basic and advanced), Vehicle and Spacevessel design
sequences, Combat and damage (no PC superiority, unlike TNE), Starting
Cash/Benefits, mass combat, task system, experience system, and general
look and feel.

But as for the look and feel of TNE, T:2K, DC, et al, I never liked the
look of the books, nor the feel of the settings. I especially dislike the
GDW House system's Experience system; in normal play, a character gains
more in a year of being a PC than in any 4 years of Prior service. Here's
the math: averageing 1 character month per session, at 4 XP per session,
with most characters alternating experience into both high and low (6+ and
3-) level skills. And I feel that the GDW House system OVERVALUES
attributes. A low score was a pain in MT; it now cripples a character. I
agree that MT undervalued attributes. But TNE's overvalue is all the more
apparent when one compares it to MT.

-Wil

William F. Hostman

EMail:          ANWFH@Orion.Alaska.EDU
HomePage:       http://orion.alaska.edu/~aswfh/index.html



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 16:36:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Imperial Varient: The Imperial Federation
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960119143219.16715D@hubble.sheridanc.on.ca>


The offical Imperium is the wealthiest and largest government in Charted
Space; it has rivals, but no equals.  But what if it wasn't so dominant?
What if the Imperium was just one of a large number of governments, set
in a vastly expanded arena of Charted Space?  What if the Solomani kept up
their rate of technological growth from the 20th century?  What if the
Imperium wasn't a Vilani/Solomani union, but a federation of several
human races?

This Imperial Varient makes the following assumptions that vary from the
standard Imperial Space campagin:

A) The Vargr never really became a major force in history till rather
recently.  They're so busy sacking and raiding each other on Lair that
they never build the economic or technological capital to develop jump
drive (or even get past TL 4 for longer than a decade) until the Zho's
arrive.

B) There are no psionics in this campagin: The Zhodani Consulate exist
for a far shorter time as a result, but the Zho people expand their
cultural zone over a far greater area.

C) The Vilani Ziru Sirka also expands over a much larger area: the
Terrans never stand a chance against the First Imperium.  But they get
their revenge, and develop into something... different.

D) The Hiver/K'Kree War ends with K'Kree conquest of the Hive Federation.

E) The Offical timeline is shortened considerabily, since everyone
develops and expands at a more swifter, more realistic rate.

----------**********----------**********----------**********

Please excuse certain archaic name's (ie "Dominion of Antares") in the
timeline below: it's written for clear comprehension by TML readers.
(Hopefully)

----------**********----------**********----------**********

-20,000  The Ancients go interstellar
-10,000  The Ancients discover Terra.  They modify several hundred versions
         of Humanity (and certain other races), and scatter them throughout
         the stars.
-5,000   The Final War.  Ancient bases on Terra are destroyed.  The most
         complete and intact set of ruins left on a world with a
         surviving band of humans is on Vland and Zhodane.
-4,000   Vilani discover jump drive, partially developed from the ruins.
-3,000   The Zho's utilize the ruins to develop a TL 10 culture: however,
         jump drive artifacts are too few to properly research.  While
         the Vilani remain conservative and rather pastoral in their
         culture, the Zhodani intergrate cyberspace and digital
         consciousness into the foundation of their culture.
-2,000   Vilani develop jump2 drive: Vilani culture stabilizes at TL 11.
 (early) The Zhodani rise to TL 13, but still fail to develop jump
         drives.  True AI is developed.  Zhodani sublight exploration
         begins in earnest.
-2,000   Other minor human races begin to develop jump drives.  Severl small
 (late)  (subsector-size) empires begin to spring up.
-1,858   The Vilani foung the Ziru Sirka, and begin conquering every
         non-Vilani empire in sight.
-1,761   Hivers develop inferior jump drive.
-1,690   Hivers develop standard jump drive.
-1,328   K'kree develop jump drive.
-1,081   Zhodani discover jump drive.
-  947   Vilani ceases expansion.  Currently sprawled in a massive
         empire, about twice the sice of the offical First Imperium.
         (major extentions coreward of the Offical Universe boundaries)
         Vilani lose knowledge of the scientific method, preferring to
         learn everything by rote, and ignoring things that don't match
         with offical teaching.
-  882   Zhodani discover jump drive, explodes to the stars.
-  856   Zho's contact the primitive Darrien's.  Darriens begin to
         industrialize

-  634   Terran's develop jump drive (Terran date: 2191 AD)
-  622   Terrans contact Vilani
-  608   Vilani conquer Terra
-  600   Terran plagues hit Vilani hard.  Vilani nuke Terran cities, flee
         from the system.
-  600   As Terra rebuilds from the ruins, Ziru Sirka disintergrates.
   to    No experience with biochemmically compatable diseases - or even
-  400   a germ theory - dooms the Vilani to 90% death rates.  Widespread
         xenophobia by the survivors end's startravel.

-  394   Terra sends heavily armed expeditions to nearby systems.
-  326   Hiver-K'Kree contact.  Bad relations soon develop.
-  269   Terran Sphere formed.  Colonization begins.
-  251   Zhodani contact infected Vilani systems.  Whine not as hard-hit
         as the Vilani (The Zho's retained a good ability to 'do science'),
         a general fall in population and technology hit's the Zho's for
         about 300 years.
-  229   Hiver-K'Kree war begins.
-  223   Hivers surrender to K'Kree.
-  101   Zhodani traders contact Lair, the Vargr homeworld

     0   Syleans rediscover jump drive
    74   Terran expansion ends.  The Terran Sphere is fixed at a radious
         of 50 parsecs from Sol.
    93   Darrians develop jump drive
   120   The 41 sector Zhodani Consulate breaks up.  Tech level falls
         from 14 to 11, but - despite the chaos, wars, and plagues -
         startravel never ceases.
   129   Aslans discover jump drive.
   130   Terrans discover immortality.  Entire culture begins to shift in
         response as immortality becomes widespread within the Terran Sphere.
   143   Vargr hit's TL 9, builds jump drives, begins expansion.
   147   Aslans visit the Terran Sphere, now at about TL 22.  Stands in awe.
   178   Syleans Federation formed, encompassing Dagudashaag, Sylea
         ("Core" in the Offical Imperium), Fornast
   182   The Illeish rediscover jump drive, begins expansion.
   203   Vargr begins to conquer much of the coreward regions of the olf
         First Imperium
   213   Darrians form the Darrian Confederation, begins conquest of the
         Marches, Deneb sectors
   226   Syleans begins the first attempt to rechart the entire area of
         the First Imperium (First Grand Survey)
   251   Vilani systems conquered by the Vargr rebel.  Many gain freedom,
         gain's Vargr jump drive technology, begins expansion.
   268   Illeish Federation formed
   272   Sylea Federation notes that scouts sent within a certain
         distance of Terra "dissapear".  The Scout Service organizes the
         Makatirni Expedition, containing a fleet of c.100 ships to the
         Black Sphere.  Said fleet is never heard of again, First
         Grand Survey ends.
   280   Vland itself regains jump drive.
   291   Antarians discover jump drive, form the Dominion of Antares.
         Begins expansion.
   305   First of many wars between Darrian and Zhodani nations.  In
         later wars, Vargr fleets play a major role.
   315   Terrans, now at about TL 27, discover stutterwarp.
   321   Trade agreement formed between Illeish, Sylea, Vland.
   331   Vilani nations to coreward from the Ziru Sirkaa (note that extra
         "a").  Military actions against Vargr's, and actions against
         Sylean operations in Ziru Sirkaa space begins.
   348   Vargr form a single Vargr state, Aeksozadho, to respond to the Ziru
         Sirkaa and Zhodani nations (and they said it couldn't be done...)
   357   Zhodani cross the Great Reft, through the Riftspan Reaches.
   372   Ziru Sirkaa reconquer's Vland.
   384   Syleans, Illeish and free Vland systems create the Saritai
         Military Alliance.
   391   The Alliance launches a major war against the Ziru Sirkaa,
         across Vland and Lishun sectors
   396   The Dominion of Antares joins the Alliance, and is
         attacked by the Ziru Sirkaa (a.k.a. the Second, or New, Imperium)
   397   Aslan threats to Zhodani colonists flare into a series of
         overlapping wars.
   397   Vland is reconquered by the Alliance.  Warfare continues
   402   Lishun is reconquered: the Core Wars ends.
   409   Aslan-Zhodani wars grows progressively more desperate and
         destructive.
   428   The Zhodani retreat back across the Rift, holding on only to
         both sized of the Riftspan Reaches.
   438   The Vargr's capitalize on Ziru Sirkaa weakness by major pillage
         and plunder.
   445   The Saritai Military Alliance is replaced by the Third
         Imperium.  Vland, Sylean, Antares Domains founded.
   456   Darrian explorers cross Corridor sector, contacts the Third
         Imperium.  Frendly relations are founded.
   494   Internal rebellion within the Ziru Sirkaa forces that empire to
         retreat from Aeksozadho borders, as well as Provence sector and The
         Windhorn sector.
         The Third Imperium get's it's first taste of Vargr raiding tactics.
   552   A resurgant Two Thousand Worlds expands to Ley Sector,
         Glimmerdrift Reaches, Hinderworlds, Spica.  Tensions between the
         Third Imperium and the K'Kree rises.
   565   The Darrians petition to join the Imperium.  In a 5 year
         campagin, the Vilani & Vargr holdings in Corridor Sector is
         conquered.
   567   The unified Vargr nation of Aeksozadho disintergrates into chaos.

*****-----

"Imperial years" are Sylean years in this universe.  A Sylean year is .941
of a Terran year.

At present (570 Imperial, c. 3467 AD) the Third Imperium consists of
about 23 sectors (all the sectors if the traditional Third Imperium,
excluding those of the Terran Sphere)

In contrast, te Ziru Sirkaa - the largest empire in Charted Space - has
44 sectors.  The two Thousand worlds covers 25 sectors.  The assorted
Zhodani states are spread over 200 sectors, but no single state is
greater than 15 sectors.  The Aslan rule 10 sectors.  The Terran Sphere -
the single most power empire in existance - is satisfied with 9 sectors.

Tech levels (Average - novel - experimental)

Third Imperium
  Domain of Sylea    F - F - G
            Ilelish  D - E - F
            Deneb    C - G - H
            Vland    D - E - F
            Antares  B - E - E
2000 Worlds          C - E - F
Zhodani states
  Zdiproiesh Eijia   E - F - G
  Inzhianzhzdians    D - E - F
Aslan Hierate        B - E - E
Terran Sphere        31- 33 -34
Ziru Sirkaa          B - E - E
Vargr Space          C - F - G

Notable Differences

The Imperium - and the history of Charted Space - is generally younger.
In this senario, the Imperium is only 125 years old, and it's only been
570 years sice jump drive was locally rediscovered.

Charted Space - a.k.a. the civilized portion of the Galaxy - is still
very tiny compared to the rest of the stars, but a good deal larger than
the Offical Campagin.  In the Offical Campagin, it's 128 sectors total:
in this varient, it's 290 sectors (with the Zho's getting 200 secotrs of
that).  Even here, it's still only 145,000 systems, trivial compared to
the c. 200,000,000,000 stars (say, 80,000,000,000 systems) in the galaxy.

The Offical Imperium is essentially a pumped-up version of the Sylean
Federation, run by Solomani.  In this senario, the Third Imperium is a
federation of five human cultures,

Sylean: best described as "aristocratic cowboys".  Enjoy's imperialism,
        extremely individualistic, willing to fight brutally to get their
        way, and scornful of prejudice.  They have a rigourous social class
        system, but people can easily go up (and down!) the system
        depending on their actions.

Vilani: very rigid, traditionalistic, and anti-technology.  Believes in the
        caste system, but caste is decided by the Vilani family and the
        person involved, not by decent - but caste is for life.
        Currently split between Ziru Sirkaa (New Imperium) and Third
        Imperium branches.

        Zuri Sirkaa Vilani (a.k.a. "colonists Vilani") are generally more
        aggressive, more soically innovative and more anti-technology than
        their Old Vland cusions ("a.k.a. "homesystem Vilani").  Both
        branched rutinely accuse the other of being 'inventive' (a curse in
        any Vilani society)

Illeish: the "solid rock" of the Imperium.  Stable, reliable, and
        boring.  They are of vilani decent, but have become more
        pro-technology and less casted than real Vilani

Antares: A nonVilani race.  Both militant and mystical, with strong
        idealistic tendency's.  Basically dislike the concept of nobility,
        but willing to put up with it.

Darrian: Tech-loving, spiritual and expansionistic.  Very fond of
        nonZhodani humans.  Are quite good at warfare, fighting Zho's and
        Vargr for centuries.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126

Reply to: alvin.plummer@SHERIDANC.ON.CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 16:52:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: A) K'Kree?  B) Other junk
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960119164545.2884A-100000@hubble.sheridanc.on.ca>


Someone here said that the K'Kree are cunning, and probably the most
dangerous empire out there.  Please give me a data download, I have no
idea how the K'Kree operate!

*****-----

Lot's of good stuff in the Regency COmbat Vechile Guide. (If you're a
warmaster).  Favourate quote:

The fact that it [Imperial Marine Grav APC's] is entirely armed with
nuclear Tac missiles and a fusion gun was well-advertized thoughtout the
Imperium, and the message was clear: when the Marines arrive, the party's
over, and no half-measures will be taken.        - p.16

Odd about the Imperial Marine's aggressive decoration schemes, though.
I thought the Army - being raised locally, and coloured by local
conditions - would have the crazy paint schems, and the marines would be
"basic black", as it were.  Still, GDW's viewpoint is not without merit.

Also got the Guilded Lilly.  Nice adventure, and a classy way for GDW to end.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126

Reply to: alvin.plummer@SHERIDANC.ON.CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 12:34:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: digest header suggestion
Message-ID: <DNXyHD1w165w@krypton.rain.com>

To avoid silliness like digest #554, I'd suggest adding an "errors-to"
line to the header. That way, only the stupidest mailers can screw us
up this way. :-)


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 22:46 GMT
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 556
Message-ID: <memo.1416@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <199601192016.UAA21253@gsusgi1.Gsu.EDU>


Argh! Somewhere along the line the TML is going <boing!> and spitting out
the bounced message as another digest. Thank God *that's* not bouncing...

---===---
Andrew Boulton

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:37:23 -0800
From: Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Regency/RC hostility...
Message-ID: <1002c390@MailXFER.DMCWAVE.COM>

Responding to Christopher Weuve:

>>I don't remember reading anything in TNE indicating that the Regency and the
RC would necessarily be hostile:  The two are a great distance apart, the
Wilds (and Virus) are in between, and they share a common foe.  I can think of
few reasons to fight and many reasons not to.<<

Take a look at the quotes towards the back of VAMPIRE FLEETS.  Commodore Roland
Zumetaxis doesn't exactly _praise_ the practices of the RCES in a precognitive
quote from the year 1206.

--Chris

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:23:48 +1030
From: htp@dove.mtx.net.au (Henry Penninkilampi)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Collectable Trading Card Games in Traveller?
Message-ID: <v01530504ad24fb9ec4b7@[203.15.30.31]>

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:
.
However, I personally detest collector card
games, so I would vote against that particular concept.  Though it might
potentially bring a lot of money, I don't think such a game would work for
Traveller (mind you, I'm admittedly biased).
.

Actually, I couldn't understand CTCGs when they first came out - I thought
"What's the point?" and avoided them.  Then CTCGs for Star Trek:  The Next
Generation and SimCity came out and I thought "Cool!".  I've actually
played the SimCity game now (and I'll be playing it again in afew hours :)
and, apart from some glaring imbalances in the rules, it's fun.

Why have I cut these two particular CTCGs some slack?  It's because I was
familiar and fond of the "original work" from which they were derived.

Now, a lot of young kids know nothing *but* CTCGs - they've never even
heard of RPGs.  If a Traveller CTCG would serve to expose Traveller on the
new generation of gamers and introduce them to the role-playing side, I
would be more than happy to see it added to the arsenal of weapons used to
revive the game.

As for whether or not it will work - I've now read a bit about the
mechanics of *how* these games work and I'm *sure* that Traveller could
make a painless transition to the ranks of CTCGs.  If we didn't want to go
the whole hog, we could work the card came *into* the role-playing game as
an optional resolution system, and it would be very, very cool!


+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|               Henry Penninkilampi (htp@dove.mtx.net.au)                |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|       "Microsoft - Redefining darkness as an industry standard."       |
|                  Stop the hegemony. Join EvangeList!                   |
|   Email <macway-request@solutions.apple.com> for an automatic reply.   |
|     Archives are at: <http://wais.sensei.com.au/searchform.html>.      |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 19:33:17 +1300
From: Simon.Harding@vuw.ac.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Progressive vs regressive
Message-ID: <199601200633.TAA15621@rata.vuw.ac.nz>

>>Here, here!  While were writing out our Trav wish lists for MM to
fill, let's add the resurrection of the 2300AD setting!  And how about a
sourcebook for one of the arms that the Kafer's _don't_ trash.
Has anyone noticed a trend with GDW games?  In Twilight the world
starts out trashed, in 2300AD the Kafers trash it, in CT the Rebellion
and then Virus trash it, in Dark Conspiracy creatures from other
dimensions trash it....  What's with the apocolyptic obsession?  Maybe
they were predicting their own demise. ;-)<<

In the last Traveller Digest it was mentioned that there was a noticable
apocolyptic trend in the development of the game setting. I agree. Traveller
was once a very progressive game system, offering an aparently limitless
frontier of worlds and opportunities. It was a game system that inspired
what I like to call FrontierThink - the passion that drove the exploration
and taming of the Earth. Today Frontiers are not expansive frontiers like
the American West, the Orient, or the South Pacific, progressive in the
sense of enlarging mans domain. Todays Frontiers are  technological,
psychological, and scientific, making things smaller, faster, stronger, smarter.

Stick with me as I am getting to my point.

SciFi literature used to be dominated by a Progressive school of writers who
had FrontierThink of the expansive sense. Today, Scifi literature is
dominated by writing about worlds within limited physical bounds, in which
technology is unbounded. The protagonists of this genre of scifi are driven
into the unbounded realms of cyberspace, drug induced groupthought and other
realms of hyperreality, while around them the physical world wilts under the
pressure of physical bounds to expansion.

We are all aware of other RPGs that reflect the cyperpunk reality of social
decay combined with internal frontiers. Traveller appears to have taken some
of this trend onboard.  The Trend is common in may things today as we
approach the end of the millenium. The Mathusian oven of the Sahara spreads,
repressed nationalism surfaces, cats and dogs living together, and mankind
hasn't been to the moon in 25 years - fuck we are never gonna get off this
festering ball.

One thing is for sure. We won't be going outside as much as we used to -
better to stay in and hang in some hyperreality or other. Don't worry about
GDW, there will be another and they'll do fine.






Simon Harding

"I am a victim of everything. I belong to several 12-step programmes, and
have been through therapy.  I have many repressed memories of abuse.
I am obviously Normal."












------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 02:32:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TNE Mechanics
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960120023018.7092A-100000@linda.teleport.com>

 I would like to add my vote for the TNE game system, it is without much
doubt the most versitile gaming system I have seen in a *long* time.
 It would be extreemley hard to do better.
 Also, one thing I did is half the hit points for everything but head on
PCs and ignored Quick-Kill, Knockdown, and the rest of those 'cept trauma
for criticials. This makes it closer to NPCs while still giving PCs a
slight advantage that they should have and it _greatly_ speeds up game play.

Bri <bri@teleport.com>


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 23:09:52 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: repeated postings of this list
Message-ID: <199601201209.XAA27183@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

Hi,

Has anyone else noted that this list is being posted *twice*, with different
numbers each time, but the only difference being the header, which has some
internet style technical garble that I don't understand there saying there's
some sort of server fault?

Getting a bit costly for those of us who have to pay by the kilobites!

Is there anyone technical in charge of the list who should be informed. Or is
it some local problem here?

Phil McGregor


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 00:46:39 +1030
From: htp@dove.mtx.net.au (Henry Penninkilampi)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Technology and War
Message-ID: <v01530502ad26570cff94@[203.15.30.9]>

Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au> postulated:

>How to Win a Modern War
>
>Here we are making certain important assumptions - that "modern" wars mean
>full scale conventional wars rather than guerilla actions and the sort of
>civil disorder that is masquerading as "war" in Africa and (to a great
>degree) Bosnia and Chechnya; and that they are, ultimately *Total War*
>(i.e.  they are wars to the "death" ... or the destruction/conversion of
>one side by the other).
>
>Given this, and assuming that the US Civil War is the first of the modern
>"Total Wars" (the Napoleonic wars don't quite cut the mustard here), then
>it can easily be seen that the winning side is always the side that has the
>largest and strongest economy. This was the case in the Civil War, WW1 and
>WW2.
.
>Comments?
.

>From a 1996 point of view, I wouldn't classify anything but the two World
Wars as "total war".  The American Civil War was nothing more than a
skirmish in comparison, but at the time, *Americans* would have thought it
to be "total war".  Don't even think that, during the era, those involved
in the Napoleonic Wars wouldn't have though that they, too, were involved
in "total war".  Compared to Imperial wars, what we've had so far would
classify as nothing more than "insignificant squabbles".

"Total War(s)...are wars to the death" is a statement which is just plain
wrong.  Total war is a state where the resources of a 'country' are geared
up and heavily focussed on resolving political differences using military
means.  This can be calculated by determining the portion of gross domestic
product expensed for military purposes and the mobilisation levels of one's
military forces.

Example...
A large country that uses 1% of its forces to invade a small neighbouring
country could hardly be deemed as being in a state of total war; yet if the
country that is attacked needs to mobilise 100% of its military and also
implement drastic economic changes to finance it's own defence (with a
corresponding effect on ALL of it's citizens) then no-one could possibly
deny that IT was in a state of total war.

Few wars are to the death.  Most are resolved when one side or the other
capitulates to avoid further strategic (military, economic and political)
losses.  What is required to push one side over this threshold has little
to do with how *many* conventional forces you have, rather, what they are,
how *good* they are, and how you apply them.

Example...
There was a movie made quite a few years ago which had a US aircraft
carrier sent back in time into World War II.  I think it was called the
Philadelphia Experiment.  I forget how it ended, but had the TL6 (1950s) US
military acquired unrestricted use of a single TL8 (1990s) military asset,
then the entire outcome of the war, and the history of mankind, would have
changed.  Why?  Not because the AXIS powers would have been slowly and
surely beaten into submission, but because, in quite short order, they
would have realised that they had fallen so far behind in a single,
crucial, technological field that they had virtually no chance of catching
up berfore biting the big one.  Rather than suffer any more military,
economic and political damage pursuing a lost cause - they would have
capitulated.

Take the above example and give the Germans an TL8 aircraft carrier and the
AXIS powers would have won.  Now we have victory by way of technological
superiority - not economic superiority.  Your statement that "it can easily
be seen that the winning side is always the side that has the largest and
strongest economy" is now developing a rather nasty flaw.  Added to this,
you cite the US Civil War, WW1 and WW2 outcomes as definitive proof that
economies are the be-all and end-all of military victory.  A sample size of
three can hardly generate any confidence whatsoever in such a statement.
Besides, I could argue that technological advances such as railroads,
machine-guns and cryptography had as much to do with winning those three
wars as the entire economic equation.

A strong economy won't automatically result in a strong military and hence
military victory.  A strong economy does, however, allow research and
development to occur in technological fields that enhance military units
and, in that way, increases the chance of military success (or allows the
chances for military success to be maintained with a smaller amount of
technologically superior military units).  This allows a country with a
smaller economy (with a large R&D investment) to militarily out-perform a
country with a larger economy (but a small R&D investment).

Technology rules, and a government that best facilitates the development of
new technologies (by way of micro-economic reform) and encourages
individual though and action (by way of social reform), will eventually
hone the sharpest blade with which to deal with foreign policy.


+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|               Henry Penninkilampi (htp@dove.mtx.net.au)                |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|       "Microsoft - Redefining darkness as an industry standard."       |
|                  Stop the hegemony. Join EvangeList!                   |
|   Email <macway-request@solutions.apple.com> for an automatic reply.   |
|     Archives are at: <http://wais.sensei.com.au/searchform.html>.      |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 557
***************************


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 558
***************************
